I've heard it about 2741073980174380173498021783490 times -- "Why can't you just make SvR like No Mercy combined with HCTP?"
I, like all of you, loved the AKI wrestling games, but is "No Mercy," and "WrestleMania 2000" what you really want? Let's discuss...
I see constantly on boards that you guys want a simulation game, and then you turn around and say "I miss the AKI games." Well, I'm just going to say it...the AKI games weren't sim wrestling games. Were they an absolute blast to play? Absolutely. But were they sim? Nope.
I won't go into why I think so, but if you really take a step back and judge those games based on what you think is a true representation of the WWE, then I think you'll know right away that they weren't sim. I think we often blur the lines between fun and sim, and alot of good sports games are like that now (NHL, FIFA). Also, and it's natural, but everyone thinks of the "heyday" as the better time. I'm not starting a SvR vs AKI argument, I'm just saying that it's important for us to separate our feelings from our desires. We all feel that we loved the AKI games, but we all want a sim wrestling game as well.
If you want a sim wrestling game, then the AKI games are not it.
Now, I realize I opened myself up to this, so I'm fully prepared to be wrong with this. I'd love it if you guys could tell me exactly what you loved about the AKI games, and what you'd like to see implemented into the SvR series from what the AKI games did. If you're one of those "I want a sim wrestling game" guys, then tell me what you liked from the AKI games from that perspective. If you're one of those guys that doesn't say that, tell me generally what you liked from the AKI games.
I want to make one thing clear though, this does not mean that what you write down, we'll build because that's just not how things work. I'm always looking for ideas, and I'd be a fool not to tap into a community of passionate fans. But look at this blog as a sounding board to get your ideas and points across.
Here we go...
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add some of the old features & match types from previous games that shouldntve been removed in the 1st place & improve them
ReplyDeletecreate a championship
special referee match
i quit match
the abillity to go up the entrance ramp during a match & go backstage
add the weapon wheel to every match type
add more weapons to the weapon wheel
improve current match types & features
thats all i can think of right now
The AI should be more agressive this time.Every wrestler should have specific reversals.We could select which reversal each wrestler would use,ex.: HBK(if he's in the game) would reverse moves into pins,Undertakers into strikes,Cm punk into kicks or submissions...and we should be able to reverse a move into our own finisher.Why can't we play Taker versus Kane and possibly reverse the tombstone of the Kane into the Undertaker's one, and Kane, with certain timing, could even reverse again or escape?
ReplyDeleteAlso add and improve the Double KO and Headlock system from svr2006.There should be Weight Detection and it would work like this:guys like rey or evan bourne would never,never,EEEEEEEEEEEVER be able to lift Big show or Khali.Their strattegy should rely on quick strikes,dropkicks,Springboard attacks,Diving moves,etc.Guys like John Cena will use the momentum lift from wwe day of reckoning where you try to fill a meter to lift your opponent,but remember: Cena can apply an Attitude Adjustment to Show,but not an Military press.Other very important thing is to use Havok Physics on wrestlers.This way they will fall of the Hell In A Cell or get slammed through a table differently every time.The last thing is: Create-an-AI : This is where you would personalize the AI from wrestlers or created wrestlers.In this mode you can:
1-Personalize how often your wrestler would do grapples,strikes,high-risk moves,UCM,submissions...
2-Sequences:some wrestlers in SVR2010 follow some sequences when used by the computer,ex.:HHH does the spinebuster,taunt,lift,dx taunt and PEDIGREE.In Create-An-AI players could make hbk (if he's in the game)have some sequence like:
When the opponent is groggy on ropes: chop,irish whip,inverted atomic drop,slam.Then check if there is a signature.If yes,climb the ropes and do the diving elbow drop.Then taunt,check if he has a finisher and apply the Sweet Chin Music.
3-Choose what type of Kip-up the wrestler would use( HBK's one,Taker's one,etc.)
4-Choose some specific characteristics for your wrestler.EX.: If hogan was in the game he could reverse a standing or ground finisher with a hulk-up(once in a match).IF undertaker is in his kip-up position and has a signature stored he could try to grab his opponent's neck to do a chokeslam(his opponent could reverse it with R2/RT).
Basically these are some of my ideas.Do you think they're good or bad ?
Just one more thing:Add an "Epic Match" mode,where you'll need a lot of finishers to defeat your opponent(legend difficluty).You'll get a lot of near-falls and submission escapes.
ReplyDeleteStephen,
ReplyDeleteI agree with your point on the AKI games not being "simulations." Clearly, wrestlers don't block dropkicks by puffing out their chest, every move isn't initiated by a collar-and-elbow, no one goes for a single leg crab 5 times in a match, releasing it for no reason each time. And lord, it's so slow. That said, I'm not sure an actual pro wrestling sim game could be designed unless the objective was to put on a good show, not win. And let's face it, who really wants a wrestling game with 3 minute chin locks and wait times while a wrestler whose been tossed out of the ring recovers (SvR 2012--featuring real commercial breaks!)
With all that being said, there's some things that No Mercy does very right that have yet to be capitalized on and incorporated into the modern WWE games.
- The Spirit Meter. The spirit meter is a pretty ingenious little system when it comes to recreating the ebb and flow of a wrestling match. If it's high, you can hit more big moves without being reversed and not be pinned. If it's low you'll get your ass kicked, nearly be unable to reverse, and be in danger of losing. Get beat on too much and you'll get back to a middle level where you can mount a comeback.
- Reversals. The reversals in No Mercy are sudden, unexpected, and defined as much by your "spirit" as they are your timing. No Mercy lets you pick a style of reversals ("Power" "Technical" "Lucha") so rather than just twisting out of a generic grapple, John Cena might power out of a bearhug with a slam, and Mysterio might rana his way out of a powerbomb attempt. Not only does it make the characters feel more like their real life counterparts, it makes the game far more exciting and unpredictable.
- Running Grapples. The AKI games encourage strong grapples. It's amazingly difficult to hit a running grapple in No Mercy. The opponent generally has to be dazed or caught off guard, and when you do manage to hit, say, Undertaker's running DDT, not only does it look vicious, it's quite the feat. Look at SvR in comparison. You can hit that running DDT over and over again. In fact, two good human players tend to never grapple each other during a match because it's a guaranteed reversal fest (a result of having reversals be determined solely by timing and not your wrestler’s spirit.)
- Weight Detection. CM Punk shouldn't be able to hold Big Show up for a delayed vertical suplex. In No Mercy, two moves can be done to Andre the Giant. A belabored scoop slam or back suplex. Is it the perfect system? No. But it makes the big, slow, giant characters unique.
Pinning -- This is more a criticism of SvR 2010. Sure, the pinning meter adds some skill to the matter of kicking out, but if you have half-decent timing you'll eventually be able to get out of anything. Part of the fun of No Mercy and other well-regarded wrestling games are those sudden, shocking, 2 and 3/4 count near falls. This doesn't happen in SvR anymore.
One final note, regarding Here Comes the Pain. One of the reasons that game seems so polished and complete is the attention that went into creating each wrestler's mannerisms and moveset. Play a match as Goldberg and you'll see all his signature slams, kicks and throws. Ric Flair chops you from every angle, works your leg, and gouge your eyes. The Rock will clap after a suplex, or gloat after his signature DDT. In Smackdown vs Raw 2010, you have Randy Orton doing Carlito's twisty neckbreaker, Christian doing flips he'd never do in real life. Everyone using the Boston Crab. Each wrestler feels like they were arbitrarily given moves--many of which are moves that were originally designed for one specific wrestler in a past game, ie. Undertakers DDT, or that Triple H kick to the hamstring. It's that attention to detail that can make a 8.0 game into a 9.5 game.
Thanks for reading!
Matt
Marcus! I incorrectly addressed you as Stephen, sorry about that :-P
ReplyDeleteOf course No Mercy wasn't a full "SIM" but it did a lot of things very well that should've been evolved over time but never were.
ReplyDelete- Weight detection. This has been explained numerous times, so I'm pretty sure you get it. Cruiserweights should never be able to lift Heavyweights or Super-heavyweights, and only Heavyweights should be able to lift Superheavies with a finisher slam of some sort. make the weight classes matter, and affect gameplay.
- Thanks to a great reversal system, and wrestlers selling and staying down for a longer period than SvR, the matches felt real. The long 2 counts, the "injured" legs, the "injured" arms, double knock downs, being able to be literally knocked out after certain moves even when KO wasn't on, etc. As the match wore on, the wrestlers looked worn out. At the same time though,. they could take damage. Matches weren't finished in 3 minutes.
- Slamming on weapons. Self explanatory. They didn't slide, and had a non-canned effect when wrestlers were slammed on them. Any move at any time.
- Full match customization. A tag team submission elimination match? Done. A triple threat First Blood? Done. A Fatal 4 Way Iron Man Match? Done. Let me make my own rules.
- A manual targeting system that wasn't broken. Seriously, try using manual targeting in SvR10. It's horrible. IDK what happened, but it's completely broken.
- Tendencies. Hardcore wrestlers that acted hardcore. Technical wrestlers that wrestled technical matches. High flyers that actually went to the top rope, and took risks. WRESTLERS THAT ACTUALLY HIT FINISHERS. Everyone had personality, and "felt" like themselves. Wrestling someone like Takamichinoku, and Funaki in No Mercy was like a REAL high flyers exhibition.
Of course the slow movement, and blocking with your chest didn't seem realistic, but the other things I mentioned added a LOT to the overall package.
Hell, speaking of match customization, if I wanted to make a PINNING ROYAL RUMBLE that was FALLS COUNT ANYWHERE, I could do that in No Mercy. Literally had a Royal Rumble that spilled into the locker room, and pool table backstage areas all while pinning to elimination wreslters, and more wrestlers would rush in through the doors after that. That was amazing to me.
ReplyDeletegood things from day of reckoning:
ReplyDelete.hell in a cell bigger cage and weapons if i'm right
.easier to stand on the apron
.moves on weapons
.fall against eachother
.being able to stop every move
.more colors for clothes
iron man match after a pin full health is not very realistic
what we need for online:
.a entertaining bar.. using the same moves over and over means no special
.a 2nd bar for how boring you are and when full the people start or continue chanting u sk,
you can't wrestle, boring or/and boooooooooooooooh
.a option to ban moves from a match
.full stadiums where you can find a lot of weapons, cars and people..
hit a other wrestler and that will start a fued/handicap
.more desigsns then only stupid tribals like fire and bones like in older games
.more hairstyles then only 1 for your caw
.custom colors should be easier
.camera outside the ring and some moves like the peoples elbow (caw) sks
a lot more stands on the ign boards
most ability's should be taken out like springboard.. i only like it from the apron to the inside.
ReplyDeletedirty pin should be with rb (xbox)
weapon everybody should have it
resilency should be for heavy or middleweights
fury strike should be with rb and for everybody but that does not mean
mysterio can hurt the big show with it..
we should be able to create all the moves with a point system and maybe 2 special bars normal and extreme finisher like 1 chokeslam or 2-3 or a powerbomb with submission
normal moves like chris jericho's classic suplex with taunt, the worm or a edited 1, a reversed scoop slam and road doggs finisher a pumphandle doggystyle slam.. depends on it if we still can use moves like the cyclone as normal move.
more options like DQ in iron man match, 1-2.. outrule
build up the ring for a match like 2 tables on eachother, 2 chairs with 1 on it
there should be some moves from the turnbuckle or standing that will move directly on the weapons(rb weapon moves)
more grapples with weapons ground (look at sandman) sitting in the turnbuckle (shane mcmahon from coast to coast)
be able to take weapon on the turnbuckle, cage and be able to place them on somebody.
Call names really need to be addressed this time around. It is time to do away with the ridiculous call names and allow gamers the opportunity to make REAL NAMES: first and last names. I should be able to make a Shane or Stephanie McMahon as a created wrestler and hear the announcer announce his or her name completely. I recall one of the older Smackdown games allowing gamers to use the call names of those who were left off as a playable character. Maybe that needs to be brought back. It is outdated and the one name, call name needs to be addressed. And last year, we had 50 available CAWs spots and like 35 generic call names: The Superstar, The Professor, etc..
ReplyDeleteFor me, Smackdown 2 should have always been the blueprint for season mode. It had an endless season mode that went on for ages. The Franchise is really lacking replay value. Modes like that and Slobberknocker, Tournament, Challenge Mode and General Manager Mode, which should have NEVER ever been removed. Story Designer is a nice addition but it was very limited. All General Manager mode needed was the cut-scenes, the customization of combining Tournament Mode (King of the Ring, Beat the clock) and adding Created titles in General Manager Mode. Also, Create A Belt, Create A Taunt, Create A PPV and Create A Manager needs to return. The rating system for Create A PPV in Smackdown 2 was amazing and my most played feature. These features allowed gamers to be creative while adding replay value. Can I ask a question? How come, WWF Attitude; a game that was made on PS1, can have Create an Arena but a game on Xbox 360 and PS3 cannot?
Another issue is removing wrestling moves, there should be a lot more available wrestling moves and taunts available. Why haven't I been able to make an accurate Hulk Hogan CAW? For starters, his taunts and finishing moves have vanished. Even the big boot is gone. The problem over the years is instead of fixing things, you all just remove it and that's that. Quit taking match-types out. Buried Alive, Special Referee, Triple Threat Tag Team, Hardcore Time Limit (Scramble), Lumberjack and 6 Diva Tag & Battle Royal should have never been removed. It adds more depth to the game. The same could be said for arenas: Saturday Night Main Event, Tribute to the Troops, WM 9, Times Square, and the English-based PPV or RAW setting whenever WWE visits England. The franchise is losing its depth and replay value.
Last couple of years, DLC has been a complete " slap in the face". WWE owns the library of how many companies? The Likeness of how many characters? What jeopardized my relationship with Smackdown games was the lack of a connectivity for Legends in Legends of Wrestlemania to be imported into either Smackdown vs Raw 2009 or Smackdown vs Raw 2010. To me, it was a bad business decision by the company not to let the connectivity work both ways. It would have allowed Legends of WrestleMania to be sold more and utilized more by gamers. And if the connectivity was not an option, why not capitalize on selling the Legends as DLC? Sure, we can create the Legends but sometimes, they lack original moves, taunts, entrance music and clothing options. Try making Yokozuna on Smackdown vs Raw 2010 or any Smackdown game for that matter. I do applaud bringing over Legends' Royal Rumble schematics but it should not have stopped there (and the pin system). That game's Hell in a Cell was WAY Better than Smackdown vs Raw 2010.
ReplyDeleteSo far, the only DLC has been "Stone Cold" Steve Austin and I go him at Launch. What was the point of making him an exclusive if he was going to be in anyway? There is plenty of room to grow when it comes to DLC: attires, arenas, RTWM stories, CAE add-ons, and movesets.
And I know one can argue well, that's why we have the Community Creation but Superstars downloaded cannot be edited? I can understand not allowing the actual appearance to be edited but not allowing gamers to edit the entrance or moveset is a little perplex. It hinders the experience. Downloading storylines should expand the replay value but that too is limited because only a certain number of CAWs can be used. If I do not want to upload my Story Design, why should I be limited to the amount of CAWs I use in my story? PS2 had unlimited CAWs; yet PS3 and Xbox360 are the superior consoles.
Last rant, view RAW 2 and take from it the split screen replay, the call name system, freedom in season mode to do WHATEVER you want (interfere and challenge people on a limb), CAE, and Day of Reckoning's ability to break moves up (once a person gets ready to do a move, there's no getting out of it: Ex. HHH gets ready to pedigree my partner and I cannot do anything to stop him from doing the pedigree.)And time limits on matches need to be brought back.
simple clothes are missing (i.r.s)
ReplyDeletewith some moves the camera zooms in to much
handicap tag matches are to difficult because of the change targets it doesn't matter how many times i press lt he just doesn't turn around
online belts should be nice with the original rules of defending them, better would be country belts which can only be defended in your own country (not important but a nice extra)
maybe you should skip a year or a few months to work on a bigger game that feels right 2 discs would be very nice
Matt touched on my biggest complaint perfectly:
ReplyDelete"One final note, regarding Here Comes the Pain. One of the reasons that game seems so polished and complete is the attention that went into creating each wrestler's mannerisms and moveset. Play a match as Goldberg and you'll see all his signature slams, kicks and throws. Ric Flair chops you from every angle, works your leg, and gouge your eyes. The Rock will clap after a suplex, or gloat after his signature DDT. In Smackdown vs Raw 2010, you have Randy Orton doing Carlito's twisty neckbreaker, Christian doing flips he'd never do in real life. Everyone using the Boston Crab. Each wrestler feels like they were arbitrarily given moves--many of which are moves that were originally designed for one specific wrestler in a past game, ie. Undertakers DDT, or that Triple H kick to the hamstring. It's that attention to detail that can make a 8.0 game into a 9.5 game."
9.5? for only giving wrestlers the right moves?
ReplyDeleteif there will be spammers online in 2011 means that there are not many options and we still can get a lot of specials with only weak moves that pissed me off online that i used strong moves but didn't get a special and those spammers will get a lot.. what is wrestling about entertainment or a fighting games with ultra combo's?
still the same bs, i remember wcw games having backstage where you can go from the ring so xbox and ps needs whole stadiums
in day of reckoning i could suplex somebody on somebody else that's realistic we could even be choke slammed on a chair
so a 9.5 without realism in this time and a caf mode where you can't even edit existing moves if i'm right like boogyslam you can't even make a suplex with taunt (classic jericho)
road doggs pumphandle slam with doggystyle taunt..
Also, I disagree about the AKI games not being simulations. You have to remember this:
ReplyDelete- The games were made in the late '90s. Some things have since changed for the better, but No Mercy is still a great place to look for core gameplay elements.
- The engine was developed to simulate Japanese wrestling, not WWE/F. The "chest puffing" and no-selling were representative of "Fighting Spirit."
the only thing that should be taken out are wrestlers that go to other organisations the rest should be improved. all moves should stay in te game. out of space doesn't have to mean DELETE a 2nd disc is a better solution if forza can do it so can svr
ReplyDeleteTOP THINGS FROM WWE AKI GAMES
ReplyDelete1) Roster Customization
2) Submission System
(all submissions are submissive)
3) Weight Detection
4) Knockout animations
5) Wrestling style/stances
(shooter, wrestling, high-flyer, etc.)
6) Plethora of moves
I think one of the things people talk about with those games is not how much of a "sim" they are... but how much you can DO in them. Is there a sustained push to open up as many options as possible?
ReplyDeleteFor example, we currently have an option in most matches that allow people to choose if they want to be able to win by submission, count count out, or DQ. These are in the Match Option screen. However, not every option is available in every match. To contrast, ANY option is available in ANY game in No Mercy, IIRC (going from memory... I may be off). So, if I want a six man battle royal that can only be won by submission, I can do it.
This sort of thing SEEMS like it should be easy to implement... but SEEMS is the key word.
Please switch the controls back. I would love to the button grapples as opposed to analog grapples. Or make the controls optional like SvR 07.
ReplyDeleteI'm chiming in a bit late, but I thought I'd add my two cents. I liked HCTP at the time it was released, but I think SVR2010 has already surpassed it.
ReplyDeletePersonally I'd like to see more influence taken from Fire Pro Wrestling and King Of Colosseum 2. It's all about being able to edit things; especially the AI logic for everyone. AI Logic Editing is far and away #1 on my wish list.
Story Designer should be 1-4 players on one console. I want to be able to play my story with my friends! Superstar Threads needs to be fixed, because a lot of things are un-customizable! (John Morrison's boots) Also, we should be able to go almost everywhere. To go backstage, you shouldn't need to pick a backstage brawl. Weight detection is deffinitley needed because I hate being able to pick up a super-heavyweight with a cruiserweight. Get rid of the points system for Create a Superstar, and give us better Create an Entrance options. (Tag Team Entrances can't really be customized)Create a Championship NEEDS to be back in, as well as Create a PPV and the Tournament mode. Story Designer needs to be updated and needs more scenes. I doubt this will ever be put in. but imagine the Punjabi Prison match in SvR 2011! Improve match types, and make the AI more realistic. (Would it be hard to make them grapple every once in a while!?) I QUIT MATCH!!! HBK should be a legend in the game! Weapons need to be made better! When I put a trash can over someone's head, and hit them with a kendo stick, it just falls to the floor as if it was never there! Weapon wheel needs to be in everything! You should also be able to break up moves! In a tag team match, my partner is about to get tombstoned and all I can do is watch! I love the abilities and the new CAW overall upgrade system. Make the Paint Tool a Little easier.Fix the Havok engine.
ReplyDeleteDon't make the weapons disappear after they break! When I do something like a suplex near the ropes, the opponent should either be bounced on the ropes (I can't explain it lol) or get thrown out of the ring by it.
ReplyDeletei no im a little late but please let us import our svr 2010 caws into svr 2011!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI like the features of the Raw/Raw 2 series on the xbox platform like when a wrestler does a finisher (or any other move) on another, someone else could interrupt the maneuver and it would immediately break it up.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I always wondered why the svr series doesn't allow users to copy the original wwe superstars/divas into create a superstar slot so our wrestlers don't look botched and 2nd rate compared to the orginals! I would suggest designing a creative suite where you (THQ/design team) create the wwe superstars/divas from that suite and allow users to create their own superstars from the same suite, that way all of the original wwe superstars/divas' content (hair, attire, logos, shoes, etc.) will be in the suite too.
If that is possible then I would also suggest instead of using those "botched" templates, design superstars/divas that did not make it in the game or even past wrestlers (Maven, Chyna, Billy Kidman, Billy Gunn, etc.) and place them in the template slots so that the users won't have to create their terrible "caws" that look nothing like the actual wrestler.
I would also recommend designing a brand spanking new create an entrance video suite and separating it from the the highlight reel suite. This time add settings/environments (beach, photoshoot, ring/arena, backstage, etc.) like the real titantrons. Add motions/taunts, and the wrestler's finishers and signatures and the ability to place them anywhere in the setting to do them. The copy/cut/paste feature would still be used. Adding Nameplates with different fonts and colors on the entrance theme whenever you want them to appear is also a good idea.
Another cool idea from the Raw 2 series, is how during the match if you execute a finisher/signature (sort of like highlights at the end of the match on svr2010) it will show a replay on the side with the template just like on the actual show which is pretty darn awesome. (here's a clip to visually explain what i'm talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeYPCzowrwM)
One thing I dislike is when I'm selecting my created wrestler for a match, my wrestler is noticeably darker and smaller then the wwe superstar/divas. I suggest using the in game superstar/diva instead of snapshots and character motions when the menu appears (where you can edit the match options and arena) here's another visual clip of what I'm trying to explain, specifically at 0:11 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVnrnCY0azQ
Those are all of my suggestions...for now!
Oh yeah and also when you unlock a superstar/divas' alternate attire, you will unlock it in create a superstar mode too. (forgot to add that in lol)
ReplyDelete